Here is the famous Scripture from 1 Thessalonians 4:
"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
This passage is very commonly used to support pretribulationism but there is absolutely no grounds for it; on the contrary, 1 Thessalonians 4 fits perfectly with the Biblical doctrine of posttribulationism. Observe certain things about this text:
1. It is concerning the dead in Christ, and it is the hope of the resurrection that is the basis of comfort (not the escaping of tribulation).
2. Verse 14 says Christ will bring the dead in Christ with Him. This is not talking about taking them away but rather gathering them to Him when He comes to earth. This is why it is called the COMING of the Lord, because He COMES.
3. The attributes of this event are an exact parallel of the description Jesus gives of His coming in Matthew 24:
-Christ comes from heaven
-in the clouds
-with a shout
-with angels
-with a trumpet
-the saints are gathered
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, [and a great voice], and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:30-31, "and a great voice" is included in the footnotes)
This is one and the same event. Paul gives no reason for us to believe the rapture takes place before the tribulation, nor anytime other than when Christ Himself signified. At Jesus' glorious return to earth the saints will be gathered together by the angels to meet the Lord in the air as He is descending. Any interpretation other than this goes beyond the text.
3 comments:
Hi Eli,
You've got me dig'n into the Word with these posts on end-time events...which is of course a good thing!
Ok, I'd like to know your thoughts on this idea from a few verses after your 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 passage to the ones found in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4,9...
"But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief...For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."
The question or point I want to make is if God has not appointed His bride unto wrath as the passage I quoted above indicates, and if Christ has indeed drank the cup of God's wrath for believers upon the cross (Matthew 26:29), then why would we as regenerated believers/Christ's bride be subject to endure these end-time tribulation events which are described as God's wrath such as in Luke 21:23, "But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people."?
Wouldn't God want to remove/rapture His bride from His tribulation/judgement time upon the earth seeing He's already had our sin judged and paid for upon the cross and considers us justified (Romans 8:31)? Maybe removed like Enoch before the flood (Gen 5:24) or Noah in the ark during the flood. Thoughts?
Todd
Brother Todd, great to hear from you!
Well, let's examine the verses you posted:
"But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief...For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:1-4,9)
1. First of all, Paul is talking about a day: the Day of the Lord. What exactly is the Day of the Lord? Because this is the subject of the verse.
There are certain people who think the Day of the Lord is the seven year period prior to the return of Christ when antichrist rises to power. Is this a reasonable understanding? On the one hand, that's not a day at all but seven years. On the other, it's not a day of the Lord but a period of antichrist and his last hour of evil upon the earth. So then if that interpretation is to be correct the Day of the Lord is not a day nor is it of the Lord. This doesn't really make sense.
Secondly, what is Paul talking about in 5:1-2? The context is about the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in 4:13-18. He's not talking about tribulation but about the resurrection of the dead, which happens when Christ comes finally.
Thirdly, every other reference to the Day of the Lord in Scripture is not talking about the tribulation period but about the day when God arises from His seat in heaven and destroys all the sinners out of the land and vindicates His people. See Isaiah 2:12-21, 13:6-19, Joel 2:31, 3:13-14, Obadiah 1:15-17, Zephaniah 1:18, 2 Corinthians 1:14, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, 2 Peter 3:10.
The Day of the Lord is not the tribulation, but the Day when Jesus comes out of heaven.
2. What is Paul talking about when he speaks of wrath? Some people think when Paul talks about wrath he is talking about the tribulation period.
No, Paul is not talking about the tribulation period at all. First, consider the context... he is talking about the day of the Lord, when Christ comes out of heaven treading "the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." (Revelation 19:15) The wrath of Almighty God is revealed at the last when Jesus comes out of heaven. So the context is nowhere talking about tribulation.
Secondly, the tribulation period is never referred to as the wrath of God. On the contrary, the tribulation is described as the time when the devil makes war with the saints and prevails against them. It is persecution, trouble and trial from the enemy we experience in the tribulation, not the wrath of God, and nowhere in Scripture are we ever promised exemption from persecution... actually we are promised it. "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake." (Philippians 1:29)
Thirdly, the wrath we are saved from is explained in Romans 5:9, "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." We are saved from the retributive justice of God by being justified by the blood of Jesus Christ. It's not tribulation at all! It's judgment. Christians who die before the tribulation occurs are saved from wrath... the wrath of God against sin. Christians who go through the tribulation are saved from wrath... the wrath of God against sin. The tribulation period is not the judgment of God against sin, but the hateful persecution of the devil against saints. It's the labor of birth before Christ is revealed from heaven.
A lot of the misunderstandings of end time prophecy comes from incorrect terminology. Hope this helps brother.
Blessings,
-Eli
PS. Luke 21:23 is actually talking about the Romans destroying Jerusalem in 70 A.D. in answer to the disciples first question regarding the temple (Luke 21:5-7).
Agree 100% Ely with this teaching about the second coming of Christ. Right now I'm listening to Dr. Walter Martin on this subject, and it is excellent! He teaches as you do. Zac Poonen is another who teaches the same way. It's good to have a witness to the truth.
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